Pardon the delay in responding to Digest 214. Well it seems that you have
taken this way too personally, which I regret. However, I think that we are
allowing this to cloud the important points. I would like to comment on a few
things for interest of the group
>I further feel and that also is not meant arrogant (but maybe a little
>proud) that relatively few people to which I d count myself have
>introduced many species to the collections simply as a consequence of
>tissue culture techniques. Others are now available at prices which
>impressively dropped making e.g. N. rajah a plant everybody can grow
>_without_ _paying_ _huge_ _sums_ _or_ _being_ _in_ _danger_ _of_ _buying_
>_wild_ _collected_ _plants_. These techniques made it possible to
>propagate species which could not otherwise be propagated at all. And -
>furthermore the accurancy of labelling has greatly improved because almost
>all plants sold really are what the label says.
I am not sure you read my message closely. This is truly a great thing and as
I said, I APPLAUDE YOUR EFFORTS!!!!!! I agree, 5 years ago, even the thought
of growing one's own N rajah was difficult due to lack of plant material!!! I
AM EXTREMELY HAPPY ABOUT THIS! I am just inquiring about what the labels
actually say.
>> In my opinion, the seller should be required to
>> supply the following data with their plants:
> Collection location
>>I fully agree with you in this point as long as it is possible (see above).
That's good. For the serious collector, it must be possible. Even if the
seed came from cultivated material from a botanical garden that perhaps lost
the label or data, such information should be revealed. Even if the data ends
up reading "seeds collected from plants grown at the Munich Botanical Garden,
collecting data for which is lost."
>> collection dates
>>Why? What s important is the location.
Yes, location is important, but date of collection is also important for wild
collected seeds. This might deter others from going back to collect more
seeds or help detect possible hybridization that occurred in another year.
Seed collected from the same plant might be different from year to year
depending on it's surroundings, etc. (A small point, I admit) A larger
point, though, regarding location data is that is is necessary for any
restoration work. Is anyone doing any thing with TC Nepenthes other than
collecting seed, working out the techniques of growing them and then
distributing them to growers? What about coordinating restoration work with
the countries of origin? I realize that the beauracracy involved may seem
insurmountable, but have you inquired? I also realize that restoration with a
limited number of genotypes may not be in the long term best interests, making
in necessary to maintain large numbers of separate clones, etc. Another
obstacle to work at. . . . .
>> if applicable, how long in vitro
>>Why?
>> how long out of vitro (important for your
>> success in growing a new arrival)
>>Of cause all plants have to be established prior to sale.
I think this should be the case.
>>Only to give the info of a date does not mean that the plant is
>>established.
I agree 100%
>>In fact it means nothing for the grower who is not really
>>into tissue culture.
I disagree and this is an important point for the folks who are getting in TC
Nepenthes. I frequently show visitors to the Atlanta Botanical Garden two
separate plants of Nepenthes (I use N truncata, ventricosa, khasiana, and some
hybrids as examples) to compare the vigor and growth rates of seed grown
plants (WITH GERMINATION AND ANY SUBSEQUENT TRANSPLANT DATES) with that of
much superior in vitro plants (AGAIN, WITH ALL THE DATES!!). Of course they
are amazed and often say that they are interested in obtaining such plants
(and I refer them to sources, by the way!), but without some data, making the
comparisons will be much more difficult.
>>What counts in the end is only the state of the plant. No matter how long
>>the establishing period took.
I think you are underestimating the scientific ability of the growers here.
While just obtaining N. rajah or N. lowii in any form may totally satisfy some
collectors, I venture to say that there will be many who are more interested
in the background of their plants. Through ICPS, many are now growing their
own Nepenthes from seed and in some limited cases will have things to compare.
> If wild
> collected, possible male parent
>>What really is important is the fact that the supplier guarantees for the
>>labelling and that the plants are well established.
I agree and I realize that it might fill volumes for the seller to provide all
the data with the plants when they publish a price list for instance. Also, I
agree that there may be some discrepancies as to what is a true species in
some cases. However, to keep things totally above board, some labelling
changes might be in order. What if all the TC sources were to label their
plant accordingly as to origin of the seed? Perhaps a W for wild collected
and C for cultivated, then make more data available when people inquire. What
about a worldwide data bank that we could all send our TC data to for
distribution to botanical gardens, etc.? I am merely throwing out ideas now.
>> Ask your tissue culture source if they have
>> grown plants on to near maturity or at least to
>> a size that indicates a true identity.
A size that indicates identity may not take too long to achieve under good
conditions. I was not speaking of flowering size. This is a cloudy issue in
my mind, because mature-type pitchers may not develop so quickly in some
species, etc. A policy to replace or refund for any that do not come "true"
should cover that.
> BUT that is when they gear up to do
> thousands of each variety...
>>If I would count the time I ve invested in many of the slow
growing highland species I could not sell them at all because I would have
to ask _really_ astronomical sums.But luckily for most of the suppliers
the main reason to grow in-vitro stuff is simply passion and love to the
plants. Compare the prices of rarer orchids which in fact can be very
expensive with prices for rare Nepenthes and you ll see that Nepenthes are
not at all overpriced.
I can relate to what it takes to set up and run a lab. I started with a UV
box in high school and ended up with several flow hoods, two autoclaves and
almost round the clock production. The costs can be phenomenal to set up a
professional lab. On a hobby scale, one could easily set up a facility in a
spare room of their house for US$2000.00 . But this is partly the price of
passion and love of the plants, I agree. I will say that costs can vary
greatly depending on whether or not one is supporting himself only by their TC
work or if it is done "on the side" as a hobby.
>>The opposite is true: Since there are quite a few people who try to sell a
>>few of their in vitro offsprings Nepenthes prices have dropped rapidly.
I agree. If these people are on the internet (and I think several are), I'd
like to hear their opinions on collection, maintenance and distribution of
data.
>>Joachim, Heiko and I ve seen several populations of Nepenthes where we
>>would feel that tissue culture is the only chance to save at least an
>>image of the plant which will be extinct in 5 or ten years.
I also agree with your views on loss of habitat, etc. I believe the
combination of factors leading to loss of habitat cause the most problems for
Nepenthes and other plants and animals, etc. There is nothing to argue there.
I was recently in Costa Rica, where the same thing is happening. It does
however, make our roles in conservation missions more pressing, as things are
literally disappearing before our eyes. We must not lose sight of the fact
that along with the distribution of plant material as a result of our efforts
in the lab, there is also a greater need to share the data and experiences
that come along the way. Coming to work at a botanical garden, the mission of
which is partly (and a large part) to to promote plants for conservation,
research and education, I am beginning to understand this all a lot better.
A public apology for letting my "imagination" out regarding the funding of
plant hunts, etc. What people do with the profits from plant sales is of no
business of mine and I regret any suppositions to the contrary.
Best,
Ron Gagliardo
------------------------------