Interesting chat. I thought I'd continue it off the list - I thought that
at least Jan would be roused to say something on this matter. Let those
other guys talk about God, the universe etc.
> Yeah, *species* of Sarracenia can be very variable indeed.
> There doesn't seem to be as much variation in S.rubra rubra and
> I think that's because it's placed at the right rank.
I agree and it's odd that this should be the case. I haven't seen too many
location forms of ssp Rubra but maybe this is because no body bothers to
collect it if it is pretty uniform.
My theory (and it is just a theory since I have no hard evidence) is that
most of the variation in Sarracenias can be traced to hybrid blood of one
sort or another. I was started thinking on this line a few years back when
I was in the States and saw what I thought was an all red flava. When I got
closer the plant in question was in fact a leucophylla hybrid. Somehow a
roque leucophylla plant had got into a pure stand of flava. You could see
the result as all around the parent leuco were hybrids of every combination
possible including this almost all red plant. It occured to me that if two
or more plants arose from similar rogue invasions that two similar plants
might cross and eventually a plant which looked exactly like flava with all
red colouring could arise which actually had hybrid material in it. It
would almost certainly take a long time but then until recently these
plants had had plenty of time. If you allow even more time it is even
possible for the red forms to hybridise and eventually form a stable
population.
So back to ssp Rubra, maybe the reason why the sub species is apparently
stable is that the isolation factors of flower size and colour do not leave
it much to hybridise with. In fact the only species likely to make a hybrid
with it would be psittacina and even then it will be a fairly rare
occurance since in my experience psittacina has a later flower.
For ssp Wherryi there is alata and leucophylla. I have seen plenty of leuco
hybrids and I suspect that many of the large forms have their origins from
alata. For ssp Gulfensis there is maybe again leucophylla. There is a bit
of a problem with the so called Ancestral form since there are no likely
candidates. I cannot completely rule out straight evolution and in reality
there is probably a mixture of the two.
> It seems you know more about this one than I. I wish the CP books
> had more info on it. Still though, I really haven't seen much
> variation in S.rubra wherryi in the wild or captive, which were from
> different locations than the plants I saw wild. Of course, there
> are many more locations to see and these are often kept quiet.. So
> my knowledge is quite limited but I hope to learn more and the best
> way to that would visit more widely seperated sites, which I'd like
> to have the chance to do. The changes I did note were color from
> pale green with bronze tinting too dark green with purple over tones
> as well some differences in the colored veining on the pitchers
The only sites I know are the miriad of sites in the Citronelle/Deer Park
region of South Alabama - the Deer Park sites are where the flower colour
forms (yellow, orange, pink) are found. In fact it's sometimes quite
different to find a red flower. The other is around the town of Perdido
just over the Florida border in Alabama. The plants here are much smaller
and often have a distinctive wavy lid.
Unfortunately I don't know where the site with the very stocky wavy lidded
form is but if you want I can get a small piece of the plant to root and
send it to you later. You'll be impressed I can assure you. I can probably
send you some of the Perdido plants as well, both the wavy lidded and the
straight lidded forms.
I got interested in rubras a few years ago, mainly because no one else
seemed to grow them. I had real difficulty tracking down some of the
sub-species and got quite a few misnamed hybrids. Of all of them ssp
Alabamensis was probably the easiest after ssp Rubra to get and ssp Jonesii
and Gulfensis were the hardest to find. I finally got one good ssp jonesii
plant from three different batches of seed, the other two being fairly
obvious frauds. It just takes so long as the ssp is pretty slow growing.
> though I haven't payed much mind to coloration of mouths of the
> pitchers. And different POPulations have different heights/sizes
> which I really doubt these are a result of hybridizing with other
> species but rather the seperate POPs have done their own evolving
> after wherryi branched off from rubra subsp. XXXXX.
I'm sure there are some really sophisticated ways to determine this but
for myself at least all I can do is speculate.
> > As I understand it to award a sub specific status to a section of
plants
> > you need to prove that there exists populations of that form which vary
> > from the type in a consistent and distinct way.
>
> Ok, you're right, a subsp. rank within wherryi is too much. But with
> more information it might prove to be a species of it's own with a
> variation rank in there somewhere. Probablied help if the size
> differences also show up in flowers which I haven't seen on the big
> ones yet. (maybe next year as I received only a wee piece of a large
> one last fall).
The flowers are probably the most consistently uniform part of the whole
thing. From what I've seen there's little variation. Some of the larger
forms do have slightly larger flowers but it's a small difference.
> P.S.
> Please note I'm not an expert on S.rubra in the slightest and
> (the above may just be mad ravings) would really love to hear
> someone who is.
Well that rules me out. :-) Half of what I've said is contraversial but who
ever got anywhere by being uncontraversial.
I just grow the things and occasionally manage to get to the States to spot
some wild ones. Lets hope that there are still some left when I next go
out.
-- Phil Wilson (cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk)