> Dave,
>
> Interesting chat. I thought I'd continue it off the list - I thought that
> at least Jan would be roused to say something on this matter. Let those
> other guys talk about God, the universe etc.
>
> > Yeah, *species* of Sarracenia can be very variable indeed.
> > There doesn't seem to be as much variation in S.rubra rubra and
> > I think that's because it's placed at the right rank.
>
> I agree and it's odd that this should be the case. I haven't seen too many
> location forms of ssp Rubra but maybe this is because no body bothers to
> collect it if it is pretty uniform.
>
> My theory (and it is just a theory since I have no hard evidence) is that
> most of the variation in Sarracenias can be traced to hybrid blood of one
> sort or another. I was started thinking on this line a few years back when
> I was in the States and saw what I thought was an all red flava. When I got
> closer the plant in question was in fact a leucophylla hybrid. Somehow a
> roque leucophylla plant had got into a pure stand of flava. You could see
> the result as all around the parent leuco were hybrids of every combination
> possible including this almost all red plant. It occured to me that if two
> or more plants arose from similar rogue invasions that two similar plants
> might cross and eventually a plant which looked exactly like flava with all
> red colouring could arise which actually had hybrid material in it. It
> would almost certainly take a long time but then until recently these
> plants had had plenty of time. If you allow even more time it is even
> possible for the red forms to hybridise and eventually form a stable
> population.
>
> So back to ssp Rubra, maybe the reason why the sub species is apparently
> stable is that the isolation factors of flower size and colour do not leave
> it much to hybridise with. In fact the only species likely to make a hybrid
> with it would be psittacina and even then it will be a fairly rare
> occurance since in my experience psittacina has a later flower.
>
> For ssp Wherryi there is alata and leucophylla. I have seen plenty of leuco
> hybrids and I suspect that many of the large forms have their origins from
> alata. For ssp Gulfensis there is maybe again leucophylla. There is a bit
> of a problem with the so called Ancestral form since there are no likely
> candidates. I cannot completely rule out straight evolution and in reality
> there is probably a mixture of the two.
>
> > It seems you know more about this one than I. I wish the CP books
> > had more info on it. Still though, I really haven't seen much
> > variation in S.rubra wherryi in the wild or captive, which were from
> > different locations than the plants I saw wild. Of course, there
> > are many more locations to see and these are often kept quiet.. So
> > my knowledge is quite limited but I hope to learn more and the best
> > way to that would visit more widely seperated sites, which I'd like
> > to have the chance to do. The changes I did note were color from
> > pale green with bronze tinting too dark green with purple over tones
> > as well some differences in the colored veining on the pitchers
>
> The only sites I know are the miriad of sites in the Citronelle/Deer Park
> region of South Alabama - the Deer Park sites are where the flower colour
> forms (yellow, orange, pink) are found. In fact it's sometimes quite
> different to find a red flower. The other is around the town of Perdido
> just over the Florida border in Alabama. The plants here are much smaller
> and often have a distinctive wavy lid.
>
> Unfortunately I don't know where the site with the very stocky wavy lidded
> form is but if you want I can get a small piece of the plant to root and
> send it to you later. You'll be impressed I can assure you. I can probably
> send you some of the Perdido plants as well, both the wavy lidded and the
> straight lidded forms.
>
> I got interested in rubras a few years ago, mainly because no one else
> seemed to grow them. I had real difficulty tracking down some of the
> sub-species and got quite a few misnamed hybrids. Of all of them ssp
> Alabamensis was probably the easiest after ssp Rubra to get and ssp Jonesii
> and Gulfensis were the hardest to find. I finally got one good ssp jonesii
> plant from three different batches of seed, the other two being fairly
> obvious frauds. It just takes so long as the ssp is pretty slow growing.
>
> > though I haven't payed much mind to coloration of mouths of the
> > pitchers. And different POPulations have different heights/sizes
> > which I really doubt these are a result of hybridizing with other
> > species but rather the seperate POPs have done their own evolving
> > after wherryi branched off from rubra subsp. XXXXX.
>
> I'm sure there are some really sophisticated ways to determine this but
> for myself at least all I can do is speculate.
>
> > > As I understand it to award a sub specific status to a section of
> plants
> > > you need to prove that there exists populations of that form which vary
> > > from the type in a consistent and distinct way.
> >
> > Ok, you're right, a subsp. rank within wherryi is too much. But with
> > more information it might prove to be a species of it's own with a
> > variation rank in there somewhere. Probablied help if the size
> > differences also show up in flowers which I haven't seen on the big
> > ones yet. (maybe next year as I received only a wee piece of a large
> > one last fall).
>
> The flowers are probably the most consistently uniform part of the whole
> thing. From what I've seen there's little variation. Some of the larger
> forms do have slightly larger flowers but it's a small difference.
> > P.S.
> > Please note I'm not an expert on S.rubra in the slightest and
> > (the above may just be mad ravings) would really love to hear
> > someone who is.
>
> Well that rules me out. :-) Half of what I've said is contraversial but who
> ever got anywhere by being uncontraversial.
>
> I just grow the things and occasionally manage to get to the States to spot
> some wild ones. Lets hope that there are still some left when I next go
> out.
>
> --
> Phil Wilson
> (cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk)
>
>
Carl J. Mazur
Cherryhill Carnivorous Plants
Grimsby, Ontario Canada
http://www.vaxxine.com/ccphome