Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:12:15 -0500 From: "Paul V. McCullough" <pvmcull@voicenet.com> To: cp@opus.hpl.hp.com Message-Id: <aabcdefg4155$foo@default> Subject: Intro of CP, and rebuttal to Paul Burkhardt
Carl Mazur wrote:
> Interesting comment, however, I really feel that many CP are just not found
> in certain areas because of human intervention as opposed to preference.
> Take humankind out of the equation, and I'm sure many CP would (ex Sarrs)
> would migrate into all suitable habitat within reach. Take for example S.
> flava. There are many habitats in Northern Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and
> NJ where these plants would grow successfully, however, around 1500 or so
> when the eastern US was being colonized, the migration of flava has
> stopped, and infact is reversed.
>
Carl,
Do you know (or does anyone else?) if there's a record of certain CP
existing in NJ (or other states for that matter) a few centuries ago
that aren't here now because of human intervention? (ie. they've been
killed off by farmers' fertilizers, various war efforts- there was a
vested interest in cannon ball production in the NJ Pine Barrens during
the Revolutionary war years that may or may not have been good for CP-
and other land development?) If so, it seems to me that such plants
SHOULD be reintroduced. It would be fascinating for someone (I have no
time...) to check into this possibility.
------------------------------
To Paul Burkhardt:
> > I believe artificial bogs increase the likelihood of
> > cross-contamination of natural bogs (Far more then anything grown in my
> > indoor greenhouse).
>
> Please explain to me how?
>
Because, neither birds, nor bees (always devoured) nor wind flow
thru my Klima-gro and out the window. :) Sorry, Paul... I couldn't
resist...
I'll answer your real question here with your own words:
> Yes, plants and seeds get distributed by wind, animals, etc. but that is
> not a proof that all such dispersals will be successful.
>
Not all... but they don't "all" need to be successful, right? Later,
you say:
> Of course, there is some possibility of
> 'foreign' contamination, but as I've already mentioned, there probably
> won't be enough 'biomass' of 'hybrid' offspring to out-compete the
> indigenous plants.
>
You go on to say:
> Haven't we been reading about the wonderful bog adventure in CA
> where D. capensis is growing successfully along with some Sarracenia?
>
So, not a lot of "biomass" (seeds) is really necessary is it? In
fact, from the very nature of d. capensis (a "weed" according to
most...), it's pretty clear that the CA infestation could have been
started just as easily with one plant... or one seed, regardless of how
it actually came about.
> Your
> argument about not knowing if D. capillaris and the vft having already
> tried to establish themselves unsuccessfully at different areas is not
> proof that they will *not* establish themselves
>
And I'll ask again, can VFT survive rock solid ice soil? Can d.
capillaris? I'm not talking about a contrived artificial bog, here- NJ
winters can often compete with Alaskan- I remember some winters when we
considered going to Alaska to beat the cold... :)
The sundews and sarrs (purpurea) and utrics that do grow here, can
survive these requirements.
But I've also read that even before mankind did much damage to VFT,
that it's natural habitat was severely limited to the Wilmington, NC
area and that efforts to introduce it into similar natural bogs in the
south have mostly failed... (or is this just propaganda?)
> Unless one makes an artificial bog within yards of a natural one, explain
> how 'new' plants will spring up, without human intervention?
>
And why is it impossible for someone to do just that- build a bog
within yards of a natural one... good point! Are you saying that nobody
owns property within yards of a natural bog? If it can happen close, it
can happen far. Sure the odds drop, but it only takes one success.
This debate is kinda silly, don't you think? I'll stick to my
opinions and you'll stick to yours. Let's argue politics and religion
instead... :)
Cheers,
Paul
-- Paul V. McCullough "3D Animation World" http://www.voicenet.com/~pvmcull "CP Page" http://www.voicenet.com/~pvmcull/pics/cp/carniv.htm
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