Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:51:42 -0600 (CST) From: Paul Burkhardt <burkhard@aries.scs.uiuc.edu> To: cp@opus.hpl.hp.com Message-Id: <aabcdefg4167$foo@default> Subject: Re: Intro of CP, and rebuttal to Paul Burkhardt
Dear Paul McCullough,
> > Yes, plants and seeds get distributed by wind, animals, etc. but that is
> > not a proof that all such dispersals will be successful.
> Not all... but they don't "all" need to be successful, right?
The point is, will even one such dispersal be successful in a natural bog
with already established CPs?
You've been making claims that artificial bogs, a bird's flight away,
increase 'contamination'. I would like to know by what reasoning you make
these claims? I've argued that random contamination, by wind, insects,
animals, and other natural vectors, do not play a significant role in
jeopardizing the genetic integrity of 'wild' bogs. I have no definite
scientific proof, but I can conjecture that such random anomalies don't
have the 'biomass' to outcompete the other plants.
> You go on to say:
>
> > Haven't we been reading about the wonderful bog adventure in CA
> > where D. capensis is growing successfully along with some Sarracenia?
> >
> So, not a lot of "biomass" (seeds) is really necessary is it? In
> fact, from the very nature of d. capensis (a "weed" according to
> most...), it's pretty clear that the CA infestation could have been
> started just as easily with one plant... or one seed, regardless of how
> it actually came about.
How can you make such a statement when you have no idea how the D.
capensis was 'put' in the bog and how many were 'put' there? Are you sure
that someone didn't scatter hundreds of D. capensis seeds or plant many
adults? What proof do you have that it only takes one D. capensis seed to
establish itself in a natural 'foreign' bog?
> > Your
> > argument about not knowing if D. capillaris and the vft having already
> > tried to establish themselves unsuccessfully at different areas is not
> > proof that they will *not* establish themselves
> >
> And I'll ask again, can VFT survive rock solid ice soil? Can d.
> capillaris? I'm not talking about a contrived artificial bog, here- NJ
> winters can often compete with Alaskan- I remember some winters when we
> considered going to Alaska to beat the cold... :)
Actually, one of my vfts has had it's pot frozen solid for long periods of
time, as can happen here in the midwest, and survived. As for D.
capillaris, I doubt it, but what if D. capillaris hybridizes with D.
intermedia, D. rotundifolia, or D. filiformis, all of which can be found
in NJ? Such hybrid offspring which might be able to survive the winters.
> But I've also read that even before mankind did much damage to VFT,
> that it's natural habitat was severely limited to the Wilmington, NC
Yes, but that still does not prove that VFTs wouldn't be able to establish
themselves in other areas with human aid. I've actually read that there
have been naturalized vfts in the Pine Barrens. I don't remember the text
clearly, but I believe it was in Slack's 1979 Carnivorous Plants book.
> area and that efforts to introduce it into similar natural bogs in the
> south have mostly failed... (or is this just propaganda?)
I believe a lot of the failed attempts at naturalizing CPs is mainly due
to our lack of knowledge and understanding of how plants succeed in the
wild.
> > Unless one makes an artificial bog within yards of a natural one, explain
> > how 'new' plants will spring up, without human intervention?
> >
> And why is it impossible for someone to do just that- build a bog
> within yards of a natural one... good point! Are you saying that nobody
> owns property within yards of a natural bog? If it can happen close, it
> can happen far. Sure the odds drop, but it only takes one success.
I thought we were discussing artificial bogs "a bird's flight away" from
natural ones. That's why I eliminated artificial bogs right next to
natural ones in my question.
Paul, I know you have your opinion and I have mine, but this thread is not
silly because of our two views. In fact, I think it is more important when
two opinions clash because it provides different perspectives. Studying
and discussing 'contamination' of natural bogs by our own private ones is
important and worthwhile. I believe that we should be careful in the
placement of artificial bogs, but I also feel that artificial bogs play a
much less role in 'contamination' than you've portrayed. That is of
course, artificial bogs which aren't right next to natural ones. :)
Paul Burkhardt
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